Comments on: True Wales? http://cambriapolitico.com/2008/10/true-wales/ News, Issues & Comment on Welsh Politics & Economy Sun, 14 Mar 2010 01:18:22 +0100 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Nigel Bull http://cambriapolitico.com/2008/10/true-wales/comment-page-1/#comment-3860 Nigel Bull Sun, 14 Mar 2010 01:18:22 +0000 http://cambriapolitico.com/?p=221#comment-3860 On Wednesday I attended my first True Wales meeting, having stumbled upon it after reading about the issues surrounding the Labour Party’s problems in Islwyn. I attended with a totally open mind. My only preconception was that of discomfort with the current main parties’ positions on many issues. From the environment, to the acceptance of an expensive new Welsh political class which is as far removed from those it supposedly represents as those sitting in Westminster, I felt like many others lacking in a relevant home to air my views. I was pleasantly surprised by those at the meeting. Whilst most had some experience working within the main political parties, this was not true of all. What did unite was a dissatisfaction of our unquestioned drift into giving more power to our AMs without real consideration of alternatives or indeed quite what political system, perhaps country we will end up with. There was certainly (and believe me I was carefully listening for one) not even a hint of any form of secret agenda. Being the only group truly questioning the current self-fulfilling prophesy of unbridled power drifting to the Eli Jenkins, the wish is for us all to consider real alternatives of devolved democracy and not to accept stage 4 as a done deal. Both partners in the coalition government needing to keep a unified front (for differing reasons!) has kept any meaningful debate (if any has occurred?) behind closed doors and is a sure sign that the current system is not the best for Wales. There is dissatisfaction in a sizable proportion of the population, not perhaps within the microcosm that exists within this site and others, but it is there. People can argue over which key the bell shaped graph rings out its message, but listen and it is there. Give all people in Wales of whichever view they may have respect for their considered opinions and in turn consider with an open mind which ones may indeed have something to offer. The tone of some arguments offered on some sites smack of petty personal attempts to extrapolate briefly expressed views into some grand plan which is clearly not intended. My experience was that of people trying to express well meant views with the best of intentions. Civil wars take generations to heal and we don’t need a Gettysburg, rise above it and give True Wales a break. After all they arranged their next public event around the need for people to watch………..the Ireland / Wales rugby match! On Wednesday I attended my first True Wales meeting, having stumbled upon it after reading about the issues surrounding the Labour Party’s problems in Islwyn. I attended with a totally open mind. My only preconception was that of discomfort with the current main parties’ positions on many issues. From the environment, to the acceptance of an expensive new Welsh political class which is as far removed from those it supposedly represents as those sitting in Westminster, I felt like many others lacking in a relevant home to air my views.

I was pleasantly surprised by those at the meeting. Whilst most had some experience working within the main political parties, this was not true of all. What did unite was a dissatisfaction of our unquestioned drift into giving more power to our AMs without real consideration of alternatives or indeed quite what political system, perhaps country we will end up with. There was certainly (and believe me I was carefully listening for one) not even a hint of any form of secret agenda. Being the only group truly questioning the current self-fulfilling prophesy of unbridled power drifting to the Eli Jenkins, the wish is for us all to consider real alternatives of devolved democracy and not to accept stage 4 as a done deal.

Both partners in the coalition government needing to keep a unified front (for differing reasons!) has kept any meaningful debate (if any has occurred?) behind closed doors and is a sure sign that the current system is not the best for Wales. There is dissatisfaction in a sizable proportion of the population, not perhaps within the microcosm that exists within this site and others, but it is there. People can argue over which key the bell shaped graph rings out its message, but listen and it is there. Give all people in Wales of whichever view they may have respect for their considered opinions and in turn consider with an open mind which ones may indeed have something to offer. The tone of some arguments offered on some sites smack of petty personal attempts to extrapolate briefly expressed views into some grand plan which is clearly not intended.

My experience was that of people trying to express well meant views with the best of intentions. Civil wars take generations to heal and we don’t need a Gettysburg, rise above it and give True Wales a break. After all they arranged their next public event around the need for people to watch………..the Ireland / Wales rugby match!

]]> By: martin anthony ap davies! http://cambriapolitico.com/2008/10/true-wales/comment-page-1/#comment-3590 martin anthony ap davies! Wed, 10 Feb 2010 02:42:49 +0000 http://cambriapolitico.com/?p=221#comment-3590 I hate to be pedantic, but can you tell me what Westminster government has done for Wales? On th one hand you complain that the Assembly doesn't have enough powers, and on the other you think it's got too many. You say the Scottish parliament is better but then complain that even limited devolution is too much. Which is it? The Welsh Assembly is being blamed for massive scale uselessness on the part of 18 years of tory rule , which decimated Wales, and 12 years of Labour rule, in which things got worse. The major decisions are still made by an expensive, tribal and inept Westminster cabal of people pandering to the SE of England. It costs 5 times more to have aMP than a AM. That's before you look at the billions it takes to run Westminster's buildings, staff, canteens and bars, etc The referendum, when it happens, will be on whether you want to be run (badly) by a London cabal of toffs and NuLab clones, or whether you want a Wales-based assembly with enough powers to be actually deserving of the misuse of powers you try to impute to it. It seems rather unfair to blame it for not having powers, then blame it for everything that's gone wrong in Wales since those Celtic gerbils first arrived. Some of you have this pathological sense that you're ruled by the Welsh Assembly. You're not. You're ruled by a clique of people in Westminster who are desperate to butter up millionaire donors, tabloid newspapers and Southern England constituencies. Get over it.the question should be do you want to be ruled by london the capital of england vote No or cardiff the capital of wales! vote Yes with more powers.I vote yes for cardiff and more powers Cymru am byth! Long live Wales!! I hate to be pedantic, but can you tell me what Westminster government has done for Wales?
On th one hand you complain that the Assembly doesn’t have enough powers, and on the other you think it’s got too many.
You say the Scottish parliament is better but then complain that even limited devolution is too much.
Which is it?
The Welsh Assembly is being blamed for massive scale uselessness on the part of 18 years of tory rule , which decimated Wales, and 12 years of Labour rule, in which things got worse.
The major decisions are still made by an expensive, tribal and inept Westminster cabal of people pandering to the SE of England. It costs 5 times more to have aMP than a AM. That’s before you look at the billions it takes to run Westminster’s buildings, staff, canteens and bars, etc The referendum, when it happens, will be on whether you want to be run (badly) by a London cabal of toffs and NuLab clones, or whether you want a Wales-based assembly with enough powers to be actually deserving of the misuse of powers you try to impute to it.
It seems rather unfair to blame it for not having powers, then blame it for everything that’s gone wrong in Wales since those Celtic gerbils first arrived.
Some of you have this pathological sense that you’re ruled by the Welsh Assembly. You’re not. You’re ruled by a clique of people in Westminster who are desperate to butter up millionaire donors, tabloid newspapers and Southern England constituencies. Get over it.the question should be do you want to be ruled by london the capital of england vote No or cardiff the capital of wales! vote Yes with more powers.I vote yes for cardiff and more powers Cymru am byth! Long live Wales!!

]]> By: alunlewis http://cambriapolitico.com/2008/10/true-wales/comment-page-1/#comment-3574 alunlewis Sun, 07 Feb 2010 14:38:19 +0000 http://cambriapolitico.com/?p=221#comment-3574 after watching rachel banner of true wales on the 'politics show' today (7/2/10), it is obvious that this organization has little understanding of welsh politics, or of what is currently under discussion. this is the true tragedy of welsh politics over the ages, namely we have relied on politicians who are more at home in serving their own interest in london. funny thing is that they did not oppose the setting up the london assembly. after watching rachel banner of true wales on the ‘politics show’ today (7/2/10), it is obvious that this organization has little understanding of welsh politics, or of what is currently under discussion. this is the true tragedy of welsh politics over the ages, namely we have relied on politicians who are more at home in serving their own interest in london. funny thing is that they did not oppose the setting up the london assembly.

]]> By: Richard Ap' Davies http://cambriapolitico.com/2008/10/true-wales/comment-page-1/#comment-1585 Richard Ap' Davies Tue, 27 Jan 2009 13:22:13 +0000 http://cambriapolitico.com/?p=221#comment-1585 Regarding The True Wales No Campaign. Since thier defeat in the last referendum and like bad losers they constantly snipe fron the sidelines. No doubt they will bring out the Anti wales brigade big guns with the next campaign for a powers with bigots and hypocrites like LLEW Smith , Neil Kinnock , Tim Williams & others pouring out their bilge in the no Campaign. I think people now realise how how a small slither of Devolution has improved Wales and now realise that Wales is under the thumb of westminster even with the limited powers the assembly has and that most of the Tory & Labour Welsh MP's ( He says with a smurk on his face. Welsh yeh right!) are pro England , fat Cats who are quite content for Wales to continue to be the invisable nation of Britain so long as they can get there freebies on the Tax payers expense and to retain their ability to enjoy the delights of soho and the London night life to bother with Wales and It's Democracy. I urge everybody who gives a dam about Wales , It's People & History to vote for a parliament because if you don't we will continue to be treated like a sub province of England whatever political party in power in London I:E Labour & Tories. So forget all the scare stories , The , Mis information by the no Campaign to frighten the voting public against voting Yes , because if you really care about the well being of Wales you will vote yes as a sign of confidence in yourslelf and country . Regarding The True Wales No Campaign. Since thier defeat in the last referendum and like bad losers they constantly snipe fron the sidelines. No doubt they will bring out the Anti wales brigade big guns with the next campaign for a powers with bigots and hypocrites like LLEW Smith , Neil Kinnock , Tim Williams & others pouring out their bilge in the no Campaign. I think people now realise how how a small slither of Devolution has improved Wales and now realise that Wales is under the thumb of westminster even with the limited powers the assembly has and that most of the Tory & Labour Welsh MP’s ( He says with a smurk on his face. Welsh yeh right!) are pro England , fat Cats who are quite content for Wales to continue to be the invisable nation of Britain so long as they can get there freebies on the Tax payers expense and to retain their ability to enjoy the delights of soho and the London night life to bother with Wales and It’s Democracy. I urge everybody who gives a dam about Wales , It’s People & History to vote for a parliament because if you don’t we will continue to be treated like a sub province of England whatever political party in power in London I:E Labour & Tories. So forget all the scare stories , The , Mis information by the no Campaign to frighten the voting public against voting Yes , because if you really care about the well being of Wales you will vote yes as a sign of confidence in yourslelf and country .

]]> By: Byn Walters http://cambriapolitico.com/2008/10/true-wales/comment-page-1/#comment-782 Byn Walters Fri, 24 Oct 2008 23:22:00 +0000 http://cambriapolitico.com/?p=221#comment-782 Very strange to have so many supposedly profound arguments with such bad grammar and spelling. I've read all of George Orwell's writings and to listen to him there's an English political State with an English army who fought off the Nazis' and theoretically would or could have fought off the Russians. The French refer to the 'Battle of England' and Great Britain is always sub-titled 'England' in French films. There was not a lot of polemic in your arguments, you were mainly attacking one another. In the French L'arrousse dictionary it states, translated, "England, the largest part of Great Britain, limited by Scotland to the north and Wales to the west. What is so wrong in realizing this politically especially now that interdependance is the norm?, we all need each other economically.Only the historical States want to keep a semblance of independance; France is under attack from the United Nations because it does not allow for its minority cultures. Admittedly Professor Gwyn Alf Williams asked "When was Wales" but the fact is that Wales exists and democracy should apply. Very strange to have so many supposedly profound arguments with such bad grammar and spelling. I’ve read all of George Orwell’s writings and to listen to him there’s an English political State with an English army who fought off the Nazis’ and theoretically would or could have fought off the Russians. The French refer to the ‘Battle of England’ and Great Britain is always sub-titled ‘England’ in French films. There was not a lot of polemic in your arguments, you were mainly attacking one another. In the French L’arrousse dictionary it states, translated, “England, the largest part of Great Britain, limited by Scotland to the north and Wales to the west. What is so wrong in realizing this politically especially now that interdependance is the norm?, we all need each other economically.Only the historical States want to keep a semblance of independance; France is under attack from the United Nations because it does not allow for its minority cultures. Admittedly Professor Gwyn Alf Williams asked “When was Wales” but the fact is that Wales exists and democracy should apply.

]]> By: Concerned http://cambriapolitico.com/2008/10/true-wales/comment-page-1/#comment-673 Concerned Tue, 14 Oct 2008 08:33:31 +0000 http://cambriapolitico.com/?p=221#comment-673 It is interesting that people can have a civilised debate about general economic/social/foreign policy issues,however once we get on to welsh nationalism/devolution the "tempers"of people rapidly descend to the gutter. The UK for all its faults has provided a governmental system that has allowed personal freedom within the law and its people have been in world economic terms generally well off. The idea that Wales should become independant and create its own governmental structure with its own economic/social/foreign policy with a population of 3 million spread over a wide geographical area is clearly a nonsense. However it is this issue that causes so much concern and anxiety and the belief that the nationalist agenda in all its forms is permeated throughout BBC Wales and the "opinion "forming classes.No body in their right mind can be against democratically elected people to supervise public policy,however what gets up my nose is the role of PC in the "GOVERNMENT" in Cardiff. Their having their cake and eating it by 1)claiming all expenditure on schemes as being down to their expertise and then2) when there isnt enough money to fund everything they blame the English for not giving them enough money. I suppose if Wales did get independance its only an hours drive to the Bridge over the Severn or in North Wales an hour to the border. It is interesting that people can have a civilised debate about general economic/social/foreign policy issues,however once we get on to welsh nationalism/devolution the “tempers”of people rapidly descend to the gutter. The UK for all its faults has provided a governmental system that has allowed personal freedom within the law and its people have been in world economic terms generally well off. The idea that Wales should become independant and create its own governmental structure with its own economic/social/foreign policy with a population of 3 million spread over a wide geographical area is clearly a nonsense. However it is this issue that causes so much concern and anxiety and the belief that the nationalist agenda in all its forms is permeated throughout BBC Wales and the “opinion “forming classes.No body in their right mind can be against democratically elected people to supervise public policy,however what gets up my nose is the role of PC in the “GOVERNMENT” in Cardiff. Their having their cake and eating it by 1)claiming all expenditure on schemes as being down to their expertise and then2) when there isnt enough money to fund everything they blame the English for not giving them enough money. I suppose if Wales did get independance its only an hours drive to the Bridge over the Severn or in North Wales an hour to the border.

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