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	<title>Comments on: Liebour say NO to Independence</title>
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	<description>News, Issues &#38; Comment on Welsh Politics &#38; Economy</description>
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		<title>By: Pork Scratcher</title>
		<link>http://cambriapolitico.com/2009/05/liebour-say-no-to-independence/comment-page-1/#comment-2440</link>
		<dc:creator>Pork Scratcher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 11:50:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cambriapolitico.com/?p=992#comment-2440</guid>
		<description>David Phillips
It is not &#039;defeatist&#039; to accept the&lt;b&gt;reality &lt;/b&gt;of situations and to understand the projected future. I am not hiding my head in the sand here I am saying it is a waste of money and energy to tackle insurmountable problems. The only people that benefit from jumping onto the &#039;green bandwagon&#039; are those who want to sell us something.
You can be sure that if the energy companies are going down this route they are only doing it for their bottom line not the sake of the planet. Wind farms a case in point. It takes more energy and CO2 to manufacture one wind turbine than its entire energy production over a 20 year cycle! Who benefits? The farmer/landowner who gets paid to have one on their land (70K per turbine) the manufacturers of the windmill and the energy company that sells the electricity back into the grid at premium green values (x3). This is &lt;b&gt;great business&lt;/b&gt; but does nothing for saving the planet - in fact it is a retrograde step.
It is highly convenient for political parties to support this because it does create jobs, stimulates some innovation and distracts people from other issues.
You don&#039;t seem to have fully grasped the fact that during a warming cycle (accelerated somewhat its true by industrialisation) there occurs a tipping point when trapped and frozen methane held in unimaginable quantities in Siberia is released into the atmosphere. This tipping point has been reached and methane release is already occuring now. This release is on a scale that totally dwarfs any contribution from man made activity and there is nothing we can do about it.
I&#039;m not saying that this prefigures the end of the world but it certainly means the end of the world as we know it now.  In this case the more control we have over our country&#039;s administrative and governmental functions  the better. By all means we should support international and pan European initiatives to prepare for and adapt to climate change and to attempt to help communities that will be affected after all that is the moral direction and we all live on one planet. We should have Independence and Authority in Wales in order to make those moral choices on behalf of ourselves and the world and not abrogate reponsibility to corrupt and blinkered government in Westminster.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David Phillips<br />
It is not &#8216;defeatist&#8217; to accept the<b>reality </b>of situations and to understand the projected future. I am not hiding my head in the sand here I am saying it is a waste of money and energy to tackle insurmountable problems. The only people that benefit from jumping onto the &#8216;green bandwagon&#8217; are those who want to sell us something.<br />
You can be sure that if the energy companies are going down this route they are only doing it for their bottom line not the sake of the planet. Wind farms a case in point. It takes more energy and CO2 to manufacture one wind turbine than its entire energy production over a 20 year cycle! Who benefits? The farmer/landowner who gets paid to have one on their land (70K per turbine) the manufacturers of the windmill and the energy company that sells the electricity back into the grid at premium green values (x3). This is <b>great business</b> but does nothing for saving the planet &#8211; in fact it is a retrograde step.<br />
It is highly convenient for political parties to support this because it does create jobs, stimulates some innovation and distracts people from other issues.<br />
You don&#8217;t seem to have fully grasped the fact that during a warming cycle (accelerated somewhat its true by industrialisation) there occurs a tipping point when trapped and frozen methane held in unimaginable quantities in Siberia is released into the atmosphere. This tipping point has been reached and methane release is already occuring now. This release is on a scale that totally dwarfs any contribution from man made activity and there is nothing we can do about it.<br />
I&#8217;m not saying that this prefigures the end of the world but it certainly means the end of the world as we know it now.  In this case the more control we have over our country&#8217;s administrative and governmental functions  the better. By all means we should support international and pan European initiatives to prepare for and adapt to climate change and to attempt to help communities that will be affected after all that is the moral direction and we all live on one planet. We should have Independence and Authority in Wales in order to make those moral choices on behalf of ourselves and the world and not abrogate reponsibility to corrupt and blinkered government in Westminster.</p>
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		<title>By: David Phillips</title>
		<link>http://cambriapolitico.com/2009/05/liebour-say-no-to-independence/comment-page-1/#comment-2439</link>
		<dc:creator>David Phillips</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 10:53:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cambriapolitico.com/?p=992#comment-2439</guid>
		<description>Pork Scratcher said:
&quot;Nevertheless it is not something that we can address or fix especially in a world so divided and disorganised as the one we inhabit. The best we can do is accomodate and adapt to changing climactic conditions&quot;

This is so defeatist that it is frightening. For sure, I agree with you that over the longer term there are natural cycles over which we do not have control, but I think you would agree with me that there is a significant body of evidence  to confirm the anthropogenic causes of climate change.

Let&#039;s have a more pro-active approach to tackling these problems instead of retreating onto the back foot and virtually accepting that we can but make a few adaptation adjustments here and there.

I agree that there much to be done in terms of protecting our global carbon sinks, most notably the Amazonian forests, and that deforestation is a very serious issue which needs to be tackled urgently. This major challenge is a perfect illustration of the global challenge we face and that trying to elide the drive to Welsh independence with Wales&#039;s natural advantage of rich renewable resources is a red herring.

The way forward on many of these renewable energy and energy saving initiatives is through international action, given that climate change impacts don&#039;t recognise regional or national borders. We have mechanisms in place already in the EU, such as the ETS to tackle CO2 emission targets over the longer term.

And I also agree with you that there is a massive growth area in the use of algae as a means of sequestering carbon dioxide emissions from our heavy industries, and that the WAG should target investment into developing systems using algae for capturing the CO2 released from industrial plants. 

Just think about it, we have a very simple process called photosynthesis - the basis of life- at our disposal and we have just walked past it. And there is also a bonus in that wen the algae sequester the CO2, one of the by-products are lipids, or vegetable oils which can have other applications.

So, let&#039;s focus on the economic and environmental challenges, these are enough to be going with for a generation, let alone a few parliaments and the angst that seems to afflict some politicos in Wales over independence. 

Really, if that was the only major concern we faced in Wales, then frankly I would be over the moon. But it is not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pork Scratcher said:<br />
&#8220;Nevertheless it is not something that we can address or fix especially in a world so divided and disorganised as the one we inhabit. The best we can do is accomodate and adapt to changing climactic conditions&#8221;</p>
<p>This is so defeatist that it is frightening. For sure, I agree with you that over the longer term there are natural cycles over which we do not have control, but I think you would agree with me that there is a significant body of evidence  to confirm the anthropogenic causes of climate change.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s have a more pro-active approach to tackling these problems instead of retreating onto the back foot and virtually accepting that we can but make a few adaptation adjustments here and there.</p>
<p>I agree that there much to be done in terms of protecting our global carbon sinks, most notably the Amazonian forests, and that deforestation is a very serious issue which needs to be tackled urgently. This major challenge is a perfect illustration of the global challenge we face and that trying to elide the drive to Welsh independence with Wales&#8217;s natural advantage of rich renewable resources is a red herring.</p>
<p>The way forward on many of these renewable energy and energy saving initiatives is through international action, given that climate change impacts don&#8217;t recognise regional or national borders. We have mechanisms in place already in the EU, such as the ETS to tackle CO2 emission targets over the longer term.</p>
<p>And I also agree with you that there is a massive growth area in the use of algae as a means of sequestering carbon dioxide emissions from our heavy industries, and that the WAG should target investment into developing systems using algae for capturing the CO2 released from industrial plants. </p>
<p>Just think about it, we have a very simple process called photosynthesis &#8211; the basis of life- at our disposal and we have just walked past it. And there is also a bonus in that wen the algae sequester the CO2, one of the by-products are lipids, or vegetable oils which can have other applications.</p>
<p>So, let&#8217;s focus on the economic and environmental challenges, these are enough to be going with for a generation, let alone a few parliaments and the angst that seems to afflict some politicos in Wales over independence. </p>
<p>Really, if that was the only major concern we faced in Wales, then frankly I would be over the moon. But it is not.</p>
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		<title>By: Julio</title>
		<link>http://cambriapolitico.com/2009/05/liebour-say-no-to-independence/comment-page-1/#comment-2438</link>
		<dc:creator>Julio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 10:38:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cambriapolitico.com/?p=992#comment-2438</guid>
		<description>Denmark? Vast natural resources? You planet living what on (re-arrange into a well-known phrase or saying). far less than Wales. Doh!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Denmark? Vast natural resources? You planet living what on (re-arrange into a well-known phrase or saying). far less than Wales. Doh!</p>
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		<title>By: mapexx</title>
		<link>http://cambriapolitico.com/2009/05/liebour-say-no-to-independence/comment-page-1/#comment-2433</link>
		<dc:creator>mapexx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 17:19:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cambriapolitico.com/?p=992#comment-2433</guid>
		<description>masaryk.....


Norway, Sweden, Dernmark et al have HAVE vast NATRUAL RESOURCES.

What has Ireland got?   nothing except labour.

What has Iceland got?  nothing except thermal power, effectively free, but hardly the stuff of mass export potential.

Waht has Wales got?

The same as Ireland...Nothing of commercial value in that most critical of spaces, the big wide world.


Independence?


Don&#039;t make me laugh, 


Last fiscal year it was in  to England/UK for 9.1 billion quid, over it&#039;s own GDP

Go independant?.... and how will that be made up from a nothing economy.

It has an ageing and a generally sickness bound society, little in the way of a serious skills base, most
who are skilled disappear over the Severn bridges as soon as they collect their degree or trade certificates.


My sides are splitting for the gall of the claims from the nationalists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>masaryk&#8230;..</p>
<p>Norway, Sweden, Dernmark et al have HAVE vast NATRUAL RESOURCES.</p>
<p>What has Ireland got?   nothing except labour.</p>
<p>What has Iceland got?  nothing except thermal power, effectively free, but hardly the stuff of mass export potential.</p>
<p>Waht has Wales got?</p>
<p>The same as Ireland&#8230;Nothing of commercial value in that most critical of spaces, the big wide world.</p>
<p>Independence?</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t make me laugh, </p>
<p>Last fiscal year it was in  to England/UK for 9.1 billion quid, over it&#8217;s own GDP</p>
<p>Go independant?&#8230;. and how will that be made up from a nothing economy.</p>
<p>It has an ageing and a generally sickness bound society, little in the way of a serious skills base, most<br />
who are skilled disappear over the Severn bridges as soon as they collect their degree or trade certificates.</p>
<p>My sides are splitting for the gall of the claims from the nationalists.</p>
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		<title>By: Pork Scratcher</title>
		<link>http://cambriapolitico.com/2009/05/liebour-say-no-to-independence/comment-page-1/#comment-2410</link>
		<dc:creator>Pork Scratcher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 07:29:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cambriapolitico.com/?p=992#comment-2410</guid>
		<description>Fine words Mr.Phillips. However, as soon as anyone mentions the words challenging, renewables or the buzz phrase carbon capture  I know that they do not live on Planet Earth but visit infrequently  from Planet Public Sector.

Climate change is something that occurs naturally and in cycles and nobody can deny that its ill effects are exacerbated by industrial pollution. Nevertheless it is not something that we can address or fix especially in a world so divided and disorganised as the one we inhabit. The best we can do is accomodate and adapt to changing climactic conditions. Building a few wind farms, making more fuel efficient cars or insulating a few homes will not stop the climate changes that are coming - its like whistling in a hurricane. If ruination of the Amazon, Congo and other &#039;lungs of the world&#039;  were stopped now then that might delay things a little while but these are politically unsolvable. These areas and the oceans are the best &#039; carbon capture&#039; methods using plant and microbial photosynthesis. Photosynthesis changed the primitive earth from a methane to predominantly oxygen world - so this is what should be supported not fiddling about with ridiculous so-called carbon capture technology. It is clear that government don&#039;t seem to be listening to real scientists and biologists.
Some of the minor non earth shattering problems we face in Wales can be ameliorated somewhat by taking responsibilitties for governance more into our own hands - surely we can do better at running our own affairs than has been done in the past.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fine words Mr.Phillips. However, as soon as anyone mentions the words challenging, renewables or the buzz phrase carbon capture  I know that they do not live on Planet Earth but visit infrequently  from Planet Public Sector.</p>
<p>Climate change is something that occurs naturally and in cycles and nobody can deny that its ill effects are exacerbated by industrial pollution. Nevertheless it is not something that we can address or fix especially in a world so divided and disorganised as the one we inhabit. The best we can do is accomodate and adapt to changing climactic conditions. Building a few wind farms, making more fuel efficient cars or insulating a few homes will not stop the climate changes that are coming &#8211; its like whistling in a hurricane. If ruination of the Amazon, Congo and other &#8216;lungs of the world&#8217;  were stopped now then that might delay things a little while but these are politically unsolvable. These areas and the oceans are the best &#8216; carbon capture&#8217; methods using plant and microbial photosynthesis. Photosynthesis changed the primitive earth from a methane to predominantly oxygen world &#8211; so this is what should be supported not fiddling about with ridiculous so-called carbon capture technology. It is clear that government don&#8217;t seem to be listening to real scientists and biologists.<br />
Some of the minor non earth shattering problems we face in Wales can be ameliorated somewhat by taking responsibilitties for governance more into our own hands &#8211; surely we can do better at running our own affairs than has been done in the past.</p>
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		<title>By: David Phillips</title>
		<link>http://cambriapolitico.com/2009/05/liebour-say-no-to-independence/comment-page-1/#comment-2409</link>
		<dc:creator>David Phillips</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 22:40:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cambriapolitico.com/?p=992#comment-2409</guid>
		<description>Jim Dunkley, Pork Scratcher, Dai and Castro  

It is true that North Sea oil and gas production is falling and so tax revenues for the UK government from this source will decline, but this is no argument for independence for Wales.

I agree that renewables are important not just for Wales or even the UK, but the whole world as the Peak Oil scenario is getting closer and our global economy is still hugely dependent on petroleum.

This is why there is a need to create thousands of jobs in low carbon, and this starts off within the education sector by reconfiguring school and university curricula to encompass new ways of thinking, entrepreneurial skills and a renewed push on science and the environment.  

As well as renewables such as solar, tidal, wind and biomass, the role of coal should not be underestimated as more emphasis will be placed on this fossil fuel as oil production levels fall away as Peak Oil predicts.

With the rise of coal comes huge challenges but this is a great opportunity to push the boat out on new Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS) technology. Wales can play a role along with international companies to accelerate the deployment of new systems which will sequester the carbon dioxide from our industrial output.

Moreover in the UK we could benefit by exporting the technologies to the emerging power economies like China and India, and this will have a huge impact on reducing global emissions of CO2.

These are the germane challenges we are all facing, and so the affectation with a move to Welsh independence is a total distraction and not what we look for in future political leaders in Wales. 

So, if you want to stick your head in the sand and stay in denial about our future global challenges, then you could indulge yourself by voting for Plaid Cymru I suppose.

But if you want a real response to what is both a challenging but also exciting time, then the solutions are to be found with Labour, who have already given the green light to a new generation of nuclear power stations, as a means to address low carbon and energy security.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim Dunkley, Pork Scratcher, Dai and Castro  </p>
<p>It is true that North Sea oil and gas production is falling and so tax revenues for the UK government from this source will decline, but this is no argument for independence for Wales.</p>
<p>I agree that renewables are important not just for Wales or even the UK, but the whole world as the Peak Oil scenario is getting closer and our global economy is still hugely dependent on petroleum.</p>
<p>This is why there is a need to create thousands of jobs in low carbon, and this starts off within the education sector by reconfiguring school and university curricula to encompass new ways of thinking, entrepreneurial skills and a renewed push on science and the environment.  </p>
<p>As well as renewables such as solar, tidal, wind and biomass, the role of coal should not be underestimated as more emphasis will be placed on this fossil fuel as oil production levels fall away as Peak Oil predicts.</p>
<p>With the rise of coal comes huge challenges but this is a great opportunity to push the boat out on new Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS) technology. Wales can play a role along with international companies to accelerate the deployment of new systems which will sequester the carbon dioxide from our industrial output.</p>
<p>Moreover in the UK we could benefit by exporting the technologies to the emerging power economies like China and India, and this will have a huge impact on reducing global emissions of CO2.</p>
<p>These are the germane challenges we are all facing, and so the affectation with a move to Welsh independence is a total distraction and not what we look for in future political leaders in Wales. </p>
<p>So, if you want to stick your head in the sand and stay in denial about our future global challenges, then you could indulge yourself by voting for Plaid Cymru I suppose.</p>
<p>But if you want a real response to what is both a challenging but also exciting time, then the solutions are to be found with Labour, who have already given the green light to a new generation of nuclear power stations, as a means to address low carbon and energy security.</p>
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